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Many years ago, when Ross first joined the community, there was an incident in Melbourne where we had been out on the street witnessing, and it was time to go to lunch. Ross was in the midst of an intense conversation with a group of young churchies who wanted only to argue with him about living by faith. The rest of us waited quite a long time for him to break away from them, despite several requests from us for him to come. Ross pleaded in his own defense that he did not know how to end the conversation, because they all just wanted to argue with him.

It was at that time that we coined a strategy called "The 180 Degree Turn". It's as easy as turning around and walking away. But what makes walking away so difficult for most of us is just our pride. We know that they are going to say that we were rude, that we were scared, or that we had no answer for the things they were saying. But once the 180 degree turn is perfected, one can really get on with the job in a way that they were not able to do when letting the argumentative people dictate our behaviour.

Even at my ripe old age, I am discovering more about my need to do that, as Glenn and I have taken to encouraging each other to stay away from the hate sites. There are a lot of celebrities and organisations in the world that have yappers who post negative stuff on the Internet (and other places if they can get openings there) about themselves. But you rarely hear them saying much more than just a passing comment about such people. There just isn't time to hear or read everything that everyone has to say on a given subject or a given person, and so it pays to go to those places where you are most likely to obtain factual information rather than angry, nit-picking comments. As someone has said before, most of these hate sites produce more heat than light. They deserve the 180 degree treatment, and those of us who apply it live much more positive lives as a result.

(Please note that I am not talking about closing one's mind to anything that disagrees with our position, but just not wasting time digging for truth in those places where emotions seem to rule more than facts.)

Question: Is it my old age or could it be deja vu? I have the feeling I may have written something like this once before (now that I've written it). Does anyone recall?

Hi Dave,
I seem to recall you putting out something quite similar to what you've shared here back in 2006, shortly before the mock trial we held in October of the same year. Still, what you've shared here includes a few details that weren't mentioned in your 2006 article version. And the over-riding message (smashing one's pride and completing the '180 degree turn') still rings true as ever, despite the passage in time. Good stuff!

Thanks Joe. I guess the real reason the thought came to mind this time around is that I am applying it to myself in a new way, i.e. walking away from the hate sites and feeling better in myself because of it.

Good for you Dave. Well good for both of us. Why fill out heads with negative stuff that they delight in saying. Only befriending you if you give them the secret handshake and stale pink cookie and say how rotten people here are. But yet doing nothing to change the world but sitting onthere butts.
It's rather sad, maybe they should start boycotting there own site, and they will feel less stress and bitter

Dave posted this and I find it intresting and relavent to areas of my life.

{It was at that time that we coined a strategy called "The 180 Degree Turn". It's as easy as turning around and walking away. But what makes walking away so difficult for most of us is just our pride. We know that they are going to say that we were rude, that we were scared, or that we had no answer for the things they were saying. But once the 180 degree turn is perfected, one can really get on with the job in a way that they were not able to do when letting the argumentative people dictate our behaviour.}


lots of times I've enagegd in agruements that go no where.Sometimes at work, sometimes in friendships and often with family.I didnt no what made me keep going at it with them when i could see it was pointless.Now I read that it is pride and I agree with that.Yesterday i engaged with someone on principle because i wanted her to retract or correct lies she posted about me.My pride was hurt because i didnt say the things and wanted others to view me in a fair way.in the end it was pointless and it got worse because in this case the person is mentally ill and canyt control her self.but in many cases people are perfectly sane but both sides keep it up.perhaps its the same on the internet as what dave is saying. a 180 degree turn, turning away and just moving on with more important matters might be the best way.the person will have to stop once you have moved away and maybe that will give them time to consider and relfect on what you were saying.you can always choose to talk again when people have chilled out and both sides reflect.perhaps they did make some valid poitns. maybe a question comes to your mind you can askj them next time if you dont let the hole thing get to a level where people never talk again.This would only work with people who are sane and who really want to have open talks not with zelots whos mind you likely wont move anyway.But I am going to start practicing the 180 degree turn on the internet anyway as well as in my personal and work life. see what happens. cant hurt and perhaps can keep things from getting bad to the point that communications is blocked off forver with the person.

A couple of comments about the 180 degree turn:

Sometimes you are dealing with a person who is actually enjoying the argument. When you walk away, it forces them to see that if they are too harsh they are going to miss out on the fun of an argument. While the first thoughts that go through their heads are the ones mentioned above (e.g. accusing you of being afraid), as they realise that you are really leaving, they may see that, in order to bring you back, they are going to have to at least hide the claws and fangs a little more.

I did that on the Jeremy Kyle Show with great success (as far as I am concerned). He was totally dominating the conversation, and his goons were being used to interrupt everything that I said. He insisted that it was his show and that it was all about him, and that he was going to dictate the terms. So I did a 180 and walked off. Suddenly I was in a powerful negotiating position with the producers. "Either call him off and let me speak or I don't go back," were my terms, and they accepted... at least temporarily.

Even in our own community, there is a member who becomes quite stressed out if there is a grievance taken against them. But this person has used the 180 as a way of controlling grievance meetings where they feel they have lost control. By walking away, the rest of us are forced to recognise that we are coming across too strongly in the things we are saying, and that person gets some "time out" to settle down and then return with a little more confidence.

There are many practical situations where walking away can actually put us back into control, even though it may look like we are losing it. Kind of the "forsake all" principle in an argument. Forsake control in order to gain control!

Yeah, I think that walking away from an argument can actually make your case for you sometimes, although I am thinking mostly about when dealing with people on the street, and not actually when you are trying to resolve a disagreement with a Christian brother or sister.

In those situations it is usually that the person just wants to have a good argument (especially when they are anti-christian), and so not taking their bait, and just saying, ok, I don't have anything more to say to you, can (sometimes) get them thinking about what it is that they are saying and what it is they are trying to achieve.

I remember one time having quite a heated discussion with another woman, but I think when I started saying that we are just arguing and I don't want to continue, she was also able to recognise that and we were able to have a pretty decent conversation after that. We both still had some disagreement with each other, but it ended well, in that we could both see that we were getting a bit emotional and not listening to each other - and we were able to discuss that and move on. That kind of thing happens *very* rarely with complete strangers, so I remember that being a highlight for me that week (it still is a highlight when I remember it).

But ah, I think I have digressed from the topic!

Doing a 180 on someone can come across as being really rude, so there is a bit of an art to doing it well (i.e. making a point by doing it but not being rude at the same time), but even if it seems 'messy' or 'harsh', I think that is better than getting in an argument with someone - which is not much of a 'witness' at all.

I know on the streets that pride is what makes us not want to do a 180-turn. It can be pride in wanting to win the argument, but also pride in worrying about what the other will think if you walk away, and that thought is usually ''ha! I beat them, that's why they walked away''. Confidence in our position is helpful in these situations, to know why you are walking away is important.

It's true what Kim said about how a 180 can seem rude, but the fear of how it may come across to the other person, is usually what can hinder us from walking away. So I agree with Kim, whether it comes of harsh or messy, you have to ask yourself what's more important.

Walking away from situations to get a better perspective on them is helpful. The idea of a 180-turn, also makes me think of just being quiet. Sometimes, just shutting up, is in someways a form of a 180.

I often get hardened trolls turning up on the chat function on our forum, and I do a variation of the 180 degree like Kim has suggested, which is where I just refuse to get drawn into arguing. Saying things like, "I really don't care to argue," can be quite effective. If they think they are going to lose me, then they sometimes tone down their abuse.

A variation on that is just to give nonsense answers to their questions or accusation, or over the top responses. For example, if they start making threats on my life, I just go on and on about, "Oh dear! Oh dear! What am I going to do? Where can I hide. Oh please tell me what you want me to do to spare myself." They are drawn in because, in a way, it's what they want me to think, but if I keep it up they start to realise that I am sending them up, and they see from that that even getting the desired response does not satisfy them, and so they have to try a different approach, which is often more rational.

On a few occasions, they have been totally disarmed and we have had a pretty conversation in the end, mainly because I did not fit their stereotype of a christian who takes himself too seriously.

this 180o turn has come in good for me in the last couple weeks and especialy this week end.I am selling my car.i got a good offer considering the car does need more work.the man was a cash sale a guy known to me from car shows,so no messing around. but My unlce happen to be at Carols when i was talking it over with the man.My uncle tried to help but was not helping and was in my veiw ruining a good relationship i had build with the man who want my car.My uncle was being quiete combattive and intrested in being greedy for more money than the man wanted to pay and in truth my uncle doesnt no much about it all anyways.i had already decided that whatever i get for the car i will accept in good heart and be thankful for that.but more thankful i am freed from something that was a money pill always sucking up more to get it *right* always being tempt to buy extras. meaning i had to wrok to pay which kept me like a hanster on a wheel.getting no where really.the car was not one i would be driving around anyways it was more like a collectorers car becasue so much money had been poured into it already.in these economic times i feel lucky to have had a cash offer this fast,no strings attatched.cash and he accepts it as is.i could feel my self getting very heated in my head and actually wanting to sugest to my Unble that he was trying to mess up my sale on perpose because he doesnt agree with some choices i am making.but i was hesitant to role out our family laundry in front of the man who had come about the car.
so i practised a 180o turn and invited the man into carols basement where we could carry on our discussion amid all my car parts etc.i locked the door behind us and pretended i didnt no that my uncle would intend to come along.my uncle phoned my cell phone which i then turned off.the deal was made and signed.then i went with the buyer to his house and collected the payment and it was done before my uncle could ***help*** me out of the deal.he wanted to no how much i got and the details but i just told him i got enough to be satisfied. i didnt let him get me into a discussion that would turn ugly.this has been the only family troble i have had and its minor.i refuse to be deverted from what i am doing by ingaging in negative arguements.Carol helped a lot becase she was always agianst the money spent on the car plus it will out of her garage so thats cool for her.she made it a good time by rejoycing a long with me that i got a fair deal and a easy deal.thats is a load off my ,mind and i am actualty happy to see the car go to someone who is going to work on it with his son.praise God that the car is sold and for a price i am satisfied with.a huge lesson has been learned by me on what can start as a innocent hobby and then become a obessesion even if only the time it was taking and the money.while i didnt go into debt to fix the car i did spend much of my earnings that could have been a lot betetr spent.lesson learned i hope i can some day use this experience to warn others off doing a similar thing.at one point i was subscribed to car magiznes costing over $125 per month.$ waste. mind waste.perhaps even an escape from facing up to relity of knowing what i should be doing.time to put away kid things and be a man.

I wondered if i would be at all sad to sell the car when it came right down to it but i feel very very free. it goes out of the garage at the end of this week and i feel totally released.it was a huge albotross at times.I belive the Lord was speaking to me and that I new that but ignored it.Now that I am facing up to what I know I need to be doing i feel free.i know my Uncle means well but i need to show him i am not a boy who needs a substitute father figure and that i can make my own choices and i will sit with them be whatever they are.i am praying for Gods lead before I do things that gives me the confidence to act.i feel stronger not weaker.

a side joke is that my uncle accused me of ignoreing his many emails to me.he wont accept that my email is screwed up so perhaps this email gremmlin is one way God helped me not be hazzled by my uncle when i was working on selling the car.I had set up a email on Carols system to email to comunicate with the pottential buyers so I was even unaware I was doing the 180o by not getting in to things with my uncle. God works in wonderful ways when we are doing what he wants us to do.I belive I got a buyer because i didnt actually care. if the car had not sold i was going to be OK with that to.I prayed about it not for the cash but for the freedom from the material obessesion which until recently i would not have admitted was in fact an Obesssesion.but it was i know that now.it was an escape to.i could turn up the music and work on the car and kind of zone out of the rat race of my job and i didnt have to *think* about heavy stuff when i was working on the car.

I am not that guy any more.